I know. You saw this and your heart stopped beating for a second... I'll wait while you catch your breath.
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First, Many MANY THANKS to both Paul W and Marc E for supplying copies of this outstanding and exceptionally rare release.
If anyone can offer scans or pictures of the album it would be greatly appreciated.
Saturn LP 487, Song of the Stargazers, was the last new Saturn release on the Chicago label. It was issued before 1981, most likely in 1979. Some copies bear the serial number 6161 (NMY). Mark Webber calls it a "mystery album." The only known copies of the LP are in Europe; "Maybe Saturn produced it in a very limited edition and they sold it while touring through Europe" (Geerken). And all known copies are defective; Julian Vein says that the LP may have been mastered on only one stereo channel.
Cosmo Dance (Ra)
Marshall Allen (fl, ob); Robert Cummings (bcl); Pat Patrick (space lute); Ronnie Boykins (b); poss. John Gilmore (perc); unidentified (perc). Live, 1967 or 68
This is a late 1960s number; the bass clarinetist is not Eloe Omoe! Personnel identified by rlc and Larry Nai.
The Others In Their World (Ra)
Galactic Synthesis (Ra) -1
Sun Ra (p, syn, org); prob. Michael Ray (tp); unidentified (tp); Craig Harris (tb); Tyrone Hill (tb-1); poss. Vincent Chancey (Fr hn); Marshall Allen (as, fl, ob, picc, perc); Danny Davis (as, perc); John Gilmore (ts, perc); Eloe Omoe (bcl); Danny Ray Thompson (bars, perc); James Jacson (bsn, Inf-d); Damon Choice (vib); prob. Dale Williams (eg); poss. Luqman Ali [Edward Skinner] (d); unidentified (d); unidentified (cga); unidentified (sticks).
These particular items seem to be from the same live concert, and are similar in sound and conception to the free improvisations on the Soundscape sessions from November 1979.
Somewhere Out (Ra)
Sun Ra (p).
This rather unusual solo piano piece could have been recorded anywhere between the mid-1960s and the late 1970s. No further information is available.
Distant Stars (Ra)
Sun Ra (p); unidentified (eg); unidentified (b); unidentified (perc).
This fragment from a live concert has a mid-1970s feel to it. There is no connection with the 1960 or 1961 composition called "Distant Stars."
Duo (Ra)
Seven Points (Ra) -1 [ens voc]
poss. Atakatune [Stanley Morgan] (perc, voc); poss. Odun [Russell Branch] (perc, voc); poss. Chiea (perc, voc -1).
Studio Recording, prob. 1970sThese two numbers feature the same percussionists, playing in a manner that is unusual for Arkestra members. On "Seven Points" they contribute some vocalizing as well. "Seven Points" as a title is reminiscent of "The Place of Five Points," which was recorded in 1979. If the percussionists are in fact Atakatune, Odun, and Chiea, a recording date of 1972 or 1973 is most likely.
The first discographical listing [of Song of the Stargazers] came from Tilman Stahl, who apparently took the misleading title "The Others in Their World" (which is not the 1960 composition) and the serial number 6161 to indicate tht the album was recorded in Chicago in 1961! Geerken and Hefele place the album in the late '60s and claim a 1970 release date. The label, however, is a rather tattered El Saturn that was characteristic of the last Chicago pressings in the late 1970s.
All info from The Earthly Recordings of Sun Ra 2nd ed.
135. [229d], 289. [229] Sun Ra and his Arkestra
Song of the Stargazers
1. The others in their world 10:14
2. Somewhere out 4:40
3. Distant stars 1:01
4. Duo 3:04
5. Seven points 4:49
6. Cosmo dance 6:31
7. Galactic synthesis 9:52
or

Wow, thank you Yotte (and Paul W and Mark E).. - I have never seen or heard anything of this album before!
ReplyDeleteThis blog is really becoming a most magnificent repository of Sun Ra's music. Long may it continue being enriched!
You're right -- my heart did stop for a moment!
ReplyDeleteWhat's next, side 2 of What's New?? ;-) Be still my heart.
many thanks!
Ha HA! I WISH, Br. Cleve - you'll notice that What's New is still a space in this place... I noticed a copy at Ebay - $60 for a 'poor' copy with deep scratches (unplayable). Hopefully somebody will turn up with a copy for us. I'd love to hear the original side two.
ReplyDeleteOk guys, this is getting scary... Here I was today thinking 'well, it would be nice if someone uploads Song of the Stargazers...' and look - here it is...
ReplyDeleteThanks for this rare gem!
> side 2 of What's New??
ReplyDeletewhat's new (side A = what's new, wanderlust, and autumn in new york) - is that what you are asking for?
what's new (side B = the 1st 3 on the janus cd, which, i think, we discussed here?)
I-)
please my 'what's new side B' comment. i think i got that part wrong. the side A part is correct.
ReplyDeleteI-)
All I know (as usual) comes from The Earthly Recordings...
ReplyDeleteSpace Is The Place/We Roam The Cosmos
First released in 1975 as Side B of Saturn LP 539/572, What's New? Side B bears the matrix number 52375B and the number 572 on the label... The 10:30 track begins with the conclusion of a live performance of "Space is the Place" and launches without pause into a lengthy "cosmo-drama," here titled with the first line of Ra's declamation... Almost all copies of What's New? replace the original B side with Side A of The Invisible Shield.
According to Campbell's
ReplyDelete"Sun Ra Discography - Discography Items # 1-25":
Sun Ra
What's New?
Saturn 52375 (1975)
Saturn 752
Saturn LP 539
(matrix 52375A)
Side A:
What's New (Burke-Haggart)
Ra-p; Al Evans-flg; John Gilmore-ts; Marshall Allen-fl; Danny Davis-as (in a rare inside solo; definitely not Allen; check out Sun Earth Rock on Night of the Purple Moon); Calvin Newborn-eg; Ronald Boykins-b; prob. Tommy Hunter-d. New York 1962 [rlc; date Trent]
Wanderlust (Calvin Newborn)
Jukin' (Al Evans)
Same personnel and session, Allen also picc. New York 1962 [Trent and rlc]
Autumn in New York (Duke)
Ra-p; John Gilmore-ts; unknown-b, poss. Tommy Hunter-d. Different ambience, most likely also New York 1962.
Side B:
(Side A of The Invisible Shield) Seems to exist only in hybridized versions. [Webber]
cf. http://homepage.uab.edu/moudry/disc_a.htm#20.
Cheers - antheraea
Antheraea...that's from the online edition/1st edition of the book. What Yotte listed above is more recently unearthed info, listed in the 2nd edition of the Campbell/Trent book as entry 226, as recordings from 1976. It is unknown how many copies (or should we say "how few copies") of this LP actually exist. It wasn't one of those platinum selling Saturn LP's ;-). The 1962/Invisible Shield hybrid album is pretty easy to find online.
ReplyDeletedear sirs you are doing a great work...
ReplyDeletei discover this website through Pathways To Unkown Worlds... they also had a post about another blog, a cinema blog, that had a complete version of Space Is The Place. It was a beautiful cinema blog. Would you so kind yo help me to find this blog again...
thank you in advance
In keeping with this group’s ability to know what’s on my mind before I say it, I was thinking last night about all those hybrids and wondering when they might appear. Since there so many, perhaps they should be posted individually and people can join them in all the various ways they appear on El Saturn On a related note, I was in Philly last summer and met a couple running a record store named Gold Million. They’d been the areas for years an as such had direct dealings with the Arkestra. They ended up with lots of interesting memorabilia, including the mental stamper for side A of Space Probe (the Moog solo side) along with an order for a pressing plant. Apparently Sonny would send a runner with the metal parts and an order for a hundred or so copies of a given album before a tour. It’s possible that the reason for all the hybrids was simply a matter of various combinations of A/B stampers going to the plant. That’s the best explanation I’ve come across.
ReplyDeleteHi giu, Thank you for your kind words and Welcome!
ReplyDeleteI miss Pathways... don't you?
I think this is the LINK you seek.
The MENTAL stampers. Even spellcheck can't help some people. Jeeze....
ReplyDeleteLOVE IT, rev.b! I noticed the 'typo' and was enjoying its connection with "this group’s ability to know what’s on my mind before I say it."
ReplyDeleteWhat a great story about Gold Million records - you don't know how many times I've wished I were in or close to Philly. I'd also love to visit Chicago and the Sun Ra collection at UofC.
I think your idea about the hybrids is fantastic! I'll be happy to post the various hybrids here, though the only versions I have currently have already been posted.
If people were to upload the alternate sides and post them at Solar Flares, then I could cobble the pieces together and upload and post the new version and include a link to the old (just an idea, anyway).
The only alternate version(s) post that I have that comes to mind involves Hiroshima and the slight difference between Paul W's rip and my own.
thanks Yotte. that is the link...
ReplyDeleteyes i miss pathways a lot... i this i was your great blog there... thanks.
i saw...sorry
ReplyDeleteOkay, I’m going to step out onto the thin ice here. Let me preface this by acknowledging I’m no expert on all things to do with Arkestra history, but I was listening to this file last night and somewhere in the piano solo (track 2) I said to myself, that’s not Sonny. Like I know the voices of my wife, mother, father, etc, Ra speaks to me as only he does. There are elements in his style that for me were fairly constant whether he was playing in, out, or somewhere there (one of my favorite Ra-isms). One of these was this beautiful rhapsodic quality. Ellington’s the only pianist I know of that comes close. To be honest, I haven’t been able to listen to the whole file yet, and the documentation sounds plausible, so I’ll try and give it my undivided tonight. Just curious if I ‘m the only one here who had this experience.
ReplyDeleteRev.b, I wish I could provide some insight. I listened again ( a couple of times) after reading your comment and I can certainly understand your suspicions. Campbell calls it an 'unusual' piece... and it is! I'm not sure what is 'off;' maybe it's timing - but actually the timing seems dead-on-Ra to me - or (you mention it lacking a rhapsodic quality) the chords seem... 'thin' to me.
ReplyDeleteWho knows? Maybe it was an exercise or an experiment. MAYBE another Arkestra member was fiddling around and Ra liked it. I sure wish there was more info about it. Veeeewy mystewious (my best elmer fudd impression).
I'd LOVE to hear what others think about the idea that it may not be Sun Ra playing piano...
I gave this a good sit down listen last night and feel pretty confident that this isn’t the Arkestra. Besides the pianist/keyboardist not sounding like Sun Ra, I didn’t hear anything that sounded anywhere close to John or Marshall. The trombone playing has been attributed to possibly Tyrone Hill, but his sound the bigger and more forceful than what I’m hearing. I remember reading in Val Wilmer’s book As Serious as Your Life that when the Arkestra toured Europe, they were surprised to hear large ensembles (I think Globe Unity was one) playing in a very similar manner to their own – some ideas taken directly from Arkestra recordings. That along with the fact that this album was only available in Europe leads me to believe these are European players obvious inspired and influence by Sun Ra – to the point of adopting the name for their band, I do like the recording though and wish we could learn who it actually is. As always I stand ready to be corrected, but at this point, I’d file this under Ra-related.
ReplyDeleteMy ear isn't as finely tuned as yours, rev.b so I won't dispute your findings. In fact, I LOVE the idea! Maybe you're on to something.
ReplyDeleteHowever, doesn't it seem extremely unlikely that Sun Ra would distribute and sell an album of music under his name that was actually performed by someone else?
I guess nothing is impossible (and we know Ra works in the realm of the impossible,) but still...
I just had a chance to listen to this album for the first time...it's great! I had read rev.b's comments and kept them in mind, and he may very well be on to something here! "Somewhere Out" is something I'd place as a late 70's recording, judging from the sound quality. A/B it with "Monorails & Satellites" 1 or 2 and you should hear the difference in clarity.
ReplyDeleteAs for the piano playing....the beginning and end sound like Sunny, but I'd agree that the middle is "unusual". There is not an edit in the piece, not that I can hear anyway. Rev.b brings up an interesting point; the piece does not readily feature Sunny's signature style, what i like to call "precise imprecision"; Monk is the only other pianist that can really do this (I've been playing piano for 40+ years, btw). It's the right way of playing the "wrong" notes, is how I like to describe it. So wrong it's right, as i've said here before. It may just be the clarity of the recording coupled with the execution of the idea. Very interesting. I'm going to listen some more later and meditate on this.
"Cosmo Dance" strikes me as an anomoly as well. It sounds more like Salah Ragab! I also don't believe that it's from the late 60's, as evidenced again by the recording quality. A/B it with "Nothing Is" or the Egyptian records or Ann Arbor...any of the live recordings from '66-73, say. It's a bigger stage, cleaner recording...sounds much more like the 80's live stuff. So maybe this album is later than '79 or '81??? Could 'Cosmo Dance' be a recording from Egypt '83???
dear br. cleve,
ReplyDeletei read the discussion re: song of the stargazers. i see it as very unlikely that sun ra would add someone else's music on his own lp... he had usually much too much of his own unreleased material !!! and i wouldn't ever discuss that the certain recording is from later date, than the date when the record was released. it is usually not a big problem to ask the owners of the record - when they bought it. if some owners including hartmut geerken and tilman stahl had this record in hand in 1981 - the track cannot be from late '80s nor from '83 - no further discussion is needed.
this album may provoke many questions but the music remains incredible - especially "cosmo dance".
best regards.
paul w.
Yotte sez:
ReplyDeletedoesn't it seem extremely unlikely that Sun Ra would distribute and sell an album of music under his name that was actually performed by someone else?
You're quite right. I'm a bit fuzzy on that part of the story. So are there reports from concert goers in Europe who purchased this album at a show from an Arkestra member? I was thinking it was a record that appeared there and since the artist was listed on the cover as Sun Ra that people took it as a Sun Ra record. I agree it is a nice album. I especially like the large ensemble pieces. I look forward to learning more about the pedigree of this one.
Paul, thanks for the clarification on the LP. I had not seen anything listed as to when the album was actually sold, or bought; I had only read about the confusion on dates as to when the album was released ('61, '79, '81 all have been mentioned). But obviously whenever someone bought it clarifies that it had been released by a certain time. I can't recall if this was an album that Rounder distributed (I worked at a record store down the street from their warehouse in the 80's). Was this the album Glenn Jones said every copy was defective? I'll have to go look for that information. This copy sounds great, and it certainly plays in both channels.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't implying that it wasn't the Arkestra performing, however there is some unusual playing on this album. I can't recall the extensive use of Arabian scales anywhere outside of "Cosmo Dance"; that's what made me think of it as an 'anomoly'. It reminded me of "Egypt Strut" which features Salah Ragab as a guest with the band. . The quality of the recording still sounds like the 70's to me, not the 60's. It's certainly a great piece of music, as is the entire album.
Overall, this is really a spectacular LP. Many thanks once again to Paul, Marc and Yotte for making it available.
Wonderful!.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what I love to hear: radio broadcasts from another planet.
Big thanks.